Open Thread – Tuesday 17 August 2021

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8,670 Responses to Open Thread – Tuesday 17 August 2021

  1. thefrollickingmole says:

    So how does “informed medical consent” rub up against imposing legal restrictions on everyday activities in order to ‘encourage” compliance?

     

    I cant see how the restrictions could survive rubbing against medical ethics if they were properly challenged.

    https://www.healthywa.wa.gov.au/~/media/Files/Corporate/Policy%20Frameworks/Clinical%20Governance%20Safety%20and%20Quality/Policy/WA%20Health%20Consent%20to%20Treatment%20Policy/Supporting/WA-Health-Consent-to-Treatment-Policy.pdf

    1.3 Principles
    The policy is guided by key two legal principles which underpin consent:
    * Patients have the right of autonomy or self-determination, recognised at law.
    * This has been described as the “right of every human being of adult years and sound mind to determine what shall be done with his own body”.2
    * The provision of medical treatment without patient consent exposes health professionals to risks of legal claims including trespass to the person (assault and battery) and/or negligence (failure to inform), except in cases where the law permits or requires treatment without consent.

     

    “…Consent will be valid if it is:
    * voluntary – the decision to either consent or not to consent to the proposed treatment must be made by the patient themselves, and must not be unduly influenced by health professionals, friends or family…”

     

    Id say there could be no argument that government policies are being used in such a way to make consent effectively void.

    If I make your earning a living or even visiting a relative hostage to receiving a medical treatment then thats a form of coercion.

     

    If I make your earning a living dependent on having a swab chucked up your nose every week thats coercion.

     

     

     


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  2. jo says:

    Dont tell me Terry is Cherry Can’t.


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  3. Steve trickler says:

    Anyone in business that facilitates politicians, media hosts….

    Any chef that cooks for these people. We will find out. You are going going to cop a flogging.

     

     

     


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  4. Bar Beach Swimmer says:

    <i>Indolent says:
    August 24, 2021 at 3:12 pm

    An Open Letter to America from Dr. Steven Hatfill, a specialist physician, recognized Virologist and Bioweapons expert and who worked as an outside advisor to the Executive Office of the President of the United States from February 2020 through the inaugural transition period of 2021</i>

    Thanks for that, Indolent.  Well worth a look – I hope many more people read it.


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  5. Steve trickler says:

    Happy to see, Rick and Sue hang!


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  6. srr says:

    TailgunneR says:
    August 24, 2021 at 4:47 pm

    I agree Tim Pool is very milquetoast, but his take on the straya lockdowns/fascism is …”

    ___________________________

    … fight for your rights to OBEY THE FASCISTS & TAKE THE DAMN ‘VACCINES!’, so we can all finally be ‘free’ ….



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  7. Timothy Neilson says:

    Terry Pedersen says:
    August 24, 2021 at 4:00 pm

    “You know no such thing.

    One case, hard lockdown NZud says you’re wrong, but that’s a given.”

    ****************************************

    Yeah, I do know, Gez.

    *******************

    Isn’t the point being made that even though NZ (and the ACT) slammed into hard lockdown the moment one person tested positive, and in Victoria Maximum Leader wasn’t slow off the mark in reimposing house arrest (nor slow in self-aggrandising comparisons with Gladys), they’re all still getting more cases coming through?

    True, NSW is getting new cases – reported cases, at least – in much higher numbers at present, but unless it’s presumed against all the evidence that “eradication” can work we’d have to reserve judgment on which outcome will ultimately be worse.



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  8. cohenite says:

    Don’t know if I’ve already said this but biden and his swamp should all be stripped naked and given a choice: either spend a day on an ant’s nest or be sent to the talifucks to negotiate face to face the release of all the people they left at the mercy of those inbred bastards.


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  9. thefrollickingmole says:

    from maurice Blackburn…

     

    ………………

    For consent to be valid, it must be given voluntarily. A voluntary decision is one that is made freely by a patient in response to an understanding of the treatment options. The decision must be free from undue pressure, coercion or manipulation.

    Treating health professionals and family members may assist the patient to come to a decision. However, assistance must be distinguished from undue influence, with the latter involving a substitution with another person’s wishes for that of the patients’. Accordingly, it is for the medical professional involved to be satisfied that it is from the patient, and not from family members or friends, or that undue influences are being placed upon the person.

     

    ………..

    The decision must be free from undue pressure, coercion or manipulation.

     

    That should be the shortest class action case in Australia.

    And I see no “out” for scum organizations like Qantas or SPC in that.

     

     


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  10. thefrollickingmole says:

    This “inspirational” ad from quaintarse makes be want to go on a frozen mallard spree.

     

    https://youtu.be/wuTnscoM024


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  11. Runnybum says:

    I hope the truckies carryout their strike & I fully support them.

    It is my greatest wish they bring the state & feral governments to their knees.


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  12. caveman says:

    <i>This bitch needs her head….

    Doherty Institute. Gates supported xunts.</i>

     

    It’s evil


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  13. Terry Pedersen says:

    min – you should book a few sessions with Steve Trickler. He’s more than a little unhinged at the moment.


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  14. Farmer Gez says:

    Yeah, I do know, Gez.

    16 June = 1 case (Dover Heights limo driver); 17 June = 2nd case (Dover Heights limo driver’s wife); no lockdown.
    ————————————————————-

    Back to the correct source of infection, and it’s not the limo driver.

    Once again it’s international travel that has been the source of all infections and is still the biggest ongoing failure of airtight quarantine.

    It wouldn’t have mattered a jot if the limo had a mask or was immunised as he was in close contact with Covid positives in an enclosed space for a prolonged period of time.

    The medical staff are infecting their own patients in various hospitals right now, despite the hygiene protocols that are observed.

    Do you honestly think that this Delta strain is easily rounded up by locking people down in their homes, except for shopping, medical appointments, childcare, takeaways…………

    Do try to think things through Terrence.

     


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  15. Baba says:

    Channel 10 newsbint claims a study out of Israel shows that a third booster shot makes the vaccine “four times more effective”.

    Just how effective does she think the vaccine might be before the booster?


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  16. Steve trickler says:

    Terry, trying to be cool.

     

     

     


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  17. Terry Pedersen says:

    Do try to think, Gez.

    Glad the Loudhailer should have properly locked down Bondi and Waverley LGA no later than midnight 17 June 2021.


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  18. H B Bear says:

    Channel 10 newsbint claims a study out of Israel shows that a third booster shot makes the vaccine “four times more effective”
    ————————

    Success will always be just out of reach while we suffer the status quo.  See also:  Aboriginal Industry modus operandi.


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  19. Boambee John says:

    Farmer Gez

    <i>Do try to think things through Terrence.</i>

    You are assuming that Parry the Very Tedious One is capable of independent thought.


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  20. Boambee John says:

    <i>Terry Pedersen says:
    August 24, 2021 at 5:41 pm

    Do try to think, Gez.

    Glad the Loudhailer should have properly locked down Bondi and Waverley LGA no later than midnight 17 June 2021.</i>

    It’s like a very tedious scratched record going around and around and around …


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  21. Farmer Gez says:

    essential workers, emergency workers, medical staff, Chemists, public transport, private transport, freight and goods carriers, journalists, police……..

    Should I keep going Locky Pedersen?

     


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  22. Terry Pedersen says:

    “Should I keep going”

    *******************

    Ok by me, Gez. The earth is, after all, flat.

     


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  23. rickw says:

    <em> “four times more effective”. </em>

    If it allows you to catch and transmit, four times more effective isn’t that good…


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  24. thefrollickingmole says:

    “…It’s like a very tedious scratched record going around and around and around…”

     

     

    I prefer the puppy poop rhoomba analogy.

    It picks up shit and spread’s it around till it finely coats everything while simultaneously thinking its making things better.

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz7JGthBbKc&list=RDASjLXrbVlMw&index=2


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  25. thefrollickingmole says:

    Ha, the ship in Fremantle with the sick crew visited us a couple of months ago.

     

    Dodged a lockdown bullet there!

     

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-24/covid-positive-test-for-ken-hou-crew-fremantle/100401890

     

     


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  26. Farmer Gez says:

    Ground control to Major Terence.

    “It’s the vibe. No that’s it, it’s the vibe.”

     


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  27. thefrollickingmole says:

    2 truck strikes???

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-24/toll-unions-strike-trucks-transport-vaccines/100401866
    Thousands of truck drivers will put a stop to wide range of product deliveries on Friday as part of a planned national strike at transport giant Toll Group.

    Around 7,000 Toll truck drivers will go on strike for 24 hours on Friday
    The Transport Workers Union accuses Toll of seeking to hire lower paid contractors
    Toll has offered workers a 2 per cent pay rise and has urged the union to return to bargaining

    The Transport Workers Union (TWU) said that “crisis talks” over a new enterprise bargaining agreement with Toll had collapsed.
    As a result, it said 7,000 truck drivers will strike for 24 hours on Friday after the negotiations broke down.


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  28. Boambee John says:

    <em> “four times more effective”. </em>

     

    Note that this is four times “more” effective, not “as” effective.

    Therefore the first two shots cannot be more than 20% effective, as four times “more” effective would then bring it to 100%. Is there anyone in the MSM who is capable of performing basic arithmetic?


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  29. Cardimona says:

    Apologies if already posted…

    Anonymous on Australia

    7m 26s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dokjjmWpaU8


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  30. Axl Rosé says:

    “Lower paid contractors” = Currymunchers.


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  31. Lysander says:

    Wow, all the crew are here.

    Including Terry pedo in name and n…..!

    (First time my workplace spamminator has let me through!)


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  32. Baba says:

    Pierre Kory

    @PierreKory
    2h

    Whoa – this is NOT about IVM, it’s the reality of having over a dozen repurposed & highly effective early treatment agents against Covid19 that are being ignored/suppressed.. while we wait for shaky evidence to deploy a BigPharma high-profit oral medicine to “save” our dumbasses

    Quote Tweet

    Covid19Crusher

    @Covid19Crusher

    Aug 21

    You do not die of Covid-19. You die of Covid-19 AND denial of prompt, early treatment. But for the absence of early treatment, you would live. And the denial of early treatment is a bureaucratic decision. A bureaucratic decision is what kills you.

    https://twitter.com/PierreKory/status/1430047089782927378?s=20



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  33. Indolent says:

    Apologies if already posted…

    Anonymous on Australia

    7m 26s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dokjjmWpaU8

    *******************

    Thank you for posting.  Now if only they could do more than reproach us from behind a mask.

     

     


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  34. Indolent says:

    Shocking Report Out About Covid Vaccine Injuries

    Shocking Report Out About Covid Vaccine Injuries (rumble.com)

     


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  35. Bar Beach Swimmer says:

    Has anyone notice that Joel Fitzgibbon’s right eyelid/eye looks odd?  I’ve only noticed it over the last couple of weeks – maybe I just didn’t notice it before that, but it makes me wonder if anything has happened to him.  Like Vic Dominello, the NSW.


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  36. Bar Beach Swimmer says:

    Hi, Lysander!  Hope all is going well.


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  37. Bar Beach Swimmer says:

    <i>Being academically bright never stopped someone from getting caught up in a cult</i>

    rickw, look at cohenite.  He’s bows down to real estate porn by checking it our religiously and trying to evangelise others to it.  If that’s not a cult I don’t know what is.😁


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  38. Eyrie says:

    “Four times as effective”

     

    Uh let me see, four times nuthin’ is uh, nuthin’

     

    God, I loved Firefly.


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  39. calli says:

    Test

    and hi Lysander!


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  40. cohenite says:

    “He’s bows down to real estate porn by checking it our religiously and trying to evangelise others to it.  If that’s not a cult I don’t know what is.”

    I do it for head prefect; he tries to be tough but he’s like a little kid who is very needy; real estate porn is like a big, fat dummy for him.


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  41. Old bloke says:

    thefrollickingmole says:
    August 24, 2021 at 4:58 pm

    So how does “informed medical consent” rub up against imposing legal restrictions on everyday activities in order to ‘encourage” compliance?

    Id say there could be no argument that government policies are being used in such a way to make consent effectively void.

    __________________________________________________

    Of course it does Mole, look at –

    “* The provision of medical treatment without patient consent exposes health professionals to risks of legal claims including trespass to the person (assault and battery) and/or negligence (failure to inform), except in cases where the law permits or requires treatment without consent.”

    Read the last sentence – “except in cases where the law permits or requires treatment without consent.”

    They are saying, yes, your body your choice, except when we, the enlightened ones who know better, choose otherwise.

    It’s the same with the privacy setting you can make on your vaccine record, it says your record is 100% secure and private, except when and where we, the same enlightened ones, choose otherwise.

    We really do need some form of a Bill of Rights in this place.



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  42. struth says:

    For those who took the vaccine to travel, yet are now proclaiming your disgust at a vaccine passport, how do you think it was going to be checked?

    Sorry, not buying your insincere opposition to a passport.

     

    By the way, I have been on about disobedience for some time.

    That is the right thing to do.

    To obey tyrants is a criminal thing to do.

    Remember Nuremberg, where for the first time people obeying tyrants were convicted, and rightly so.

    Every time you obey tyrants, what makes you any different?

    This is the sticking point for those that do not want to examine or critique themselves and what they stand for, (or don’t) but just hope somebody else will fight for them.

     

    This is a brilliant video, for those that have not understood my reasoning in dealing with the likes of Notafan and others here.

    Your obedience is criminal in my view.

    And no different to those at Nuremberg saying “I was only carrying out orders”

     

    Here


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  43. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha says:

    Al Capone’s last haul: family auctions his mementos

    Al Capone attends a football game in Chicago in 1931.

    By Richard Morgan
    The Wall Street Journal
    41 minutes ago August 24, 2021
    No Comments

    Call it Al Capone’s final haul. A trove of family mementos, jewellery and weapons once owned by the notorious gangster will be auctioned by his three surviving granddaughters, who lived in relative obscurity until they emerged in 2019.

    The collection, which includes Capone’s “favourite” gun — a Colt .45 pistol starting at $US50,000 ($69,175), a Patek Philippe pocket watch monogrammed with 90 ­diamonds, and personal letters is estimated to sell for $US700,000, by luxury asset auctioneer Witherell’s, based in Sacramento, which revealed the catalogue on Monday. Timothy Gordon, of the US version of Antiques Roadshow, appraised the items.
    “Al Capone is the most-­collected historical figure in the criminal world, and traditionally his items have sold at astronomical amounts,” he said.

    Personal items, especially monogrammed, perform particularly well, experts said. In 2017, a diamond watch owned by Capone sold for $US84,375, more than tripling its pre-auction estimate.
    A 2014 Sotheby’s auction sold Capone’s engraved 1932 silver-plated cocktail shaker for $68,500.

    From the “Australian.”


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  44. struth says:

    The truck strike is just a strike by Toll workers.

    A non issue but played up to confuse as to other rumblings going on in the industry, of which myself and a few others are pushing.

    Too many big companies now full of towel heads and transport companies are making massive profits right now. The best ever, as people realise they can’t get the stuff they might take themselves across borders, and people can’t travel anywhere to get their own supplies etc etc etc.

    It’s like bashing your head against a brick wall.

    Short term pain or else you’ll lose everything does not compute.

    As with the last of my posts above, some other transport company, some other truckie must make the first move and then I doubt they’d be supported.

    YET.


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  45. Bar Beach Swimmer says:

    cohenite @ 7:17

    that’s what all cult leaders say – I’m doing it for their own good! 😉


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  46. Armadillo says:

    Struth, it appears to me that with the Toll strike, the unions are just “jumping on the bandwagon”of independent truckers threats to blockade to get their union workers a pay rise.

    Is that a fair summation?


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  47. Dot says:

    *Your obedience is criminal in my view.*

     

    Hi struth, you’ve probably gone too far here and are starting to become the thing you are trying to drag us back away the abyss from.

     

    Don’t state into it for too long.


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  48. Bar Beach Swimmer says:

    <i>thefrollickingmole says:
    August 24, 2021 at 4:58 pm

    So how does “informed medical consent” rub up against imposing legal restrictions on everyday activities in order to ‘encourage” compliance?

     

    I cant see how the restrictions could survive rubbing against medical ethics if they were properly challenged<i/>

    Mole, see this on <i>vaccinations, coercion and the rule of law</i>, on Quadrant, which discusses civil conscription.  The article states that civil conscription, which includes mandatory vaccination, is illegal under the Constitution.

    https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/the-law/2021/08/vaccinations-coercion-and-the-rule-of-law/

     

    (p.s. I did write an extended comment on this and was sure I put it up earlier in the night, but have no idea where it went).


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  49. struth says:

    No dot.

    Obedience to this shit doesn’t make you a gas chamber participant, but it is criminal in my view, to obey this shit.

    And it certainly is.

    As the video shows you.

    I’m not the only one who thinks like that.

    If the population obeying this shit just stopped doing so, it would be over, so how can you suggest they have nothing to answer?


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  50. Barry says:

    Old bloke says:
    August 24, 2021 at 7:34 pm

    We really do need some form of a Bill of Rights in this place.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     

    Except, of course, most modern Bills of Rights include generous carve-outs of the form “unless otherwise authorized according to law”

    Even those Bills of Rights with seemingly unambiguous language e.g. “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech … ” can easy be rendered impotent if the words uttered include “nigger” or c&nt (h/t P.J O’rourke)


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  51. struth says:

    Armadillo.

    There are a few boofhead truck drivers who are trying to do something.

    The union is ntrying to muddy the waters.

    Think about the last time road transport “striked”

    It’s only one company.

    It steals the oxygen from the other truckies trying to do something.

    This is just the top end of town in action.

    Tolls management and the union guys will be getting pissed together.

    Their mates in the MSM have muddied the waters and confused other truckies, defused what is building, or more correctly what they fear is building but isn’t yet!

     

    A twenty four hour strike by one company’s workers…..really that newsworthy?


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  52. candy says:

    Not tyrants, struth.  Too strong a word for ordinary peoples that the premiers and PM are.

    But the huge favourability in polling for their party and particularly their personal approval for keeping people “safe”  in the early days meant a lot to them.   They want to keep the relationship going and blind to the damage of shutdown after shutdown and police patrolling citizens.

    I think the latest protests have spooked them, though.

     


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  53. Bar Beach Swimmer says:

    Franx @ 3:55

    that reminds me of Dr Kerry Chant the other week telling all and sundry that she grew up in SW Sydney and spent much time there working among the people.


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  54. The Beer whisperer says:

    The wife has just been demanded to show her vaccination paperz or no workee.

     

    How the fuck do we get out of this totalitarian shithole?


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  55. The Beer whisperer says:

    Bill of Rights, Old Bloke?

     

    What rights?


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  56. Dot says:

    No. Stop the LNP cucking.

     

    No one is interested in LNP talking points from 1998.

     

    We NEED a bill of rights.

     

    This hysterical ‘Elf lockdown has proven that.


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  57. mh says:

    ‘To obey tyrants is a criminal thing to do.‘
    ***

    And this, Struth

    – If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. – Thomas Jefferson.

     


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  58. Dot says:

    We’re all suffering struth.

     

    I don’t remember anyone voting for lockdown, a veiled threat of coercion (or straight up kite flying) resulting in a compliant public is not “obedience”. It is hardly criminal to be coerced to meet an obligation to bargain some freedoms back, totally on the terms of the blackmailer.


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  59. Bar Beach Swimmer says:

    <i>The Beer whisperer says:
    August 24, 2021 at 8:30 pm

    The wife has just been demanded to show her vaccination paperz or no workee</i>

    Mark Latham put up on his fb page some information and strategies to deal with this. One of the commenters put it up for me and I took a copy. (we also completed privacy forms for our govt immunisation reports).

     

    Mark Latham’s Outsiders,/b>
    9h ·
    KNOW YOUR RIGHTS
    A NSW ONE NATION GUIDE
    TO THE RIGHTS OF CITIZENS IN RESISTING VACCINE PASSPORTS AND MANDATORY WORKPLACE VACCINATIONS
    (Please see the Disclaimer at the end of this document)

    Background
    One of the most important principles of our society is that people are in control of their own bodies and their own health care.
    Adults need to give informed consent to vaccinations, dealing with Covid or anything else. No government or employer can directly force a medical procedure like this upon its workers and consumers. Legally, consent cannot be valid in an environment of coercion and duress.

    Unfortunately in the Covid era, governments are intoxicated with the power to lock people in their homes and control their lives. There has been a rise in authoritarianism across the political spectrum, especially with some politicians and media blowhards yelling at people to get vaccinated.

    This campaign has been counter-productive. Australia is not an anti-vaxxer nation. Just look at our high rates of child immunisation. Many people legitimately want more information about the Covid vaccines before making up their minds. They are not anti-vaxxers but vax-laters.

    So far (as at August 2021) AstraZeneca has led to seven deaths in Australia, plus over 100 blood clots episodes and 30,000 reports of adverse reactions (official TGA data). People need to talk to their doctor about this and get the best advice in their individual health circumstances.

    The doctor-patient relationship in Australia used to be sacred. Now governments and the media are trying to get in the middle of it, hectoring people with health instructions that should only ever come from doctors. This has raised suspicions about the process and if anything, has made people more hesitant.

    Realistically, there are few good reasons to trust government. Just look at the disaster of the Sydney lockdown (which started with an unregulated airport limo driver) and the mishandling of the national vaccination roll-out. If governments knew what they were doing, we wouldn’t be in this mess in the first place.

    Because the lockdown has failed, there is a push inside the NSW Government to give people no choice but to be vaccinated. Overseas, this is known as a Vaccine Passport, meaning that people can’t work, shop, visit cafes and restaurants or lead any part of a normal life without showing their vaccine records to strangers.

    In France, the introduction of Vaccine Passports has created huge protest marches and riots. The police are going through shops and cafes checking people’s papers. Patients have even been turned away from hospitals. The French people are asking: Didn’t we defeat the Nazis to avoid this kind of thing?

    Already the NSW Government has introduced a Public Health Order making construction workers in Western Sydney show their vaccination papers just to go to work. The only other way they are allowed onto building sites is if they have had a negative Covid test or have a medical certificate pointing to reasons what they can’t be vaccinated (such as allergies, past bad reactions etc).

    Workers, sole traders and subcontractors are having to choose between their jobs and Covid vaccinations.

    This may only be the start. A number of businesspeople have called for the compulsory vaccination of all workers and customers in their industry – that is, to make us like France.

    One would have thought Australia’s trade unions would be fighting against this loss of basic workers’ rights, that no one should lose control of their health choices, handing them over to bosses. We are at risk of going back to the master/servant relationship of serfdom, where workers either do what their employees say in their personal healthcare or lose their job.

    But the unions are weak. The ACTU has said it is happy to hand this power to State Health Orders and live with the consequences.

    Many people are confused and scared of what is happening to Australia with mandatory vaccination.

    NSW One Nation has taken up this fight on behalf of the people of our State. We are opposed to Vaccine Passports. We are looking at ways of introducing legislation in the NSW upper house to limit the power of government to impose mandatory workplace vaccinations.

    We have also produced this document to help people understand their rights.

    There are ways of defending yourself against mandatory vaccinations. People have rights under existing laws and they should use them if this suits their personal health circumstances and choices.

    If State Health Orders do not apply to a workplace, yet employers want to make Covid vaccinations mandatory, the following rules apply. There are clear limitations on what employers can do.

    Please read this document carefully and know your rights:

    Work Health and Safety (WHS)

    Existing WHS laws, Federal and State, set out clear processes companies need to follow in protecting the safety of their workers. Workplace safety is an important legal obligation. This includes minimising the risks of diseases, including Covid.

    It does not follow, however, that mandatory vaccinations are required in every workplace. Nor can workers’ rights be wiped by employers sacking unvaccinated workers on-the-spot. Businesses wanting to impose vaccinations need to slow down and follow established processes of research and consultation under the WHS laws.
    They need to consult their staff, talk to the unions (in unionised workplaces) and undertake Covid risk-assessment studies to see what might be necessary. Workers have a right to insist on these processes.

    The current advice from Safe Work Australia (which has uniform legislation in place with the six States) reads: “It is unlikely that a requirement for workers to be vaccinated will be reasonably practicable … There is currently insufficient evidence about the impact of Covid-19 vaccines on transmission of the virus which means that a worker could get Covid-19 even if they are vaccinated.”

    Safe Work Australia has also said, “Most employers will not need to make vaccinations mandatory to comply with the model WHS laws”. They have emphasised the importance of physical distancing, hygiene and other measures in the workplace. Workplace risk assessments should also consider masks and PPE as an alternative to compulsory vaccinations.

    The evidence over the past 18 months is crucial: In NSW, there have been no confirmed Covid transmissions outdoors or on NSW public transport. It would be surprising, therefore, if gardeners, landscapers, tradies, construction workers and also hospitality staff working outdoors (such as picking up glasses in a beer-garden), plus public transport workers, would be deemed appropriate for employer-imposed vaccinations.

    A specific provision in the NSW Work Health Safety Act is also relevant. Section 84 states that, “A worker may cease to refuse to carry out work if the worker has a reasonable concern that to carry out the work would expose the worker to a serious risk to the worker’s health or safety, emanating from an immediate or imminent exposure to a hazard.”

    It would be reasonable to regard a directive from an employer to get vaccinated as part of one’s work. Therefore, if the worker has a medical certificate stating that a Covid vaccination would pose a serious risk to the worker’s physical or mental health, this could be sufficient grounds for ignoring the directive. Safe Work NSW is available to assist employees with further advice.

    Industrial Relations Laws

    If a worker is sacked unlawfully or unreasonably for not being Covid vaccinated, they can take unfair dismissal action at the Commonwealth’s Fair Work Commission. To clarify the rules governing such cases, on 12 August 2021 the Fair Work Ombudsman (FWO) issued a statement of ‘Workplace Rights and Obligations’.

    This is a crucial document that gives some hope for workers’ rights. It rules out an employer free-for-all, where bosses can sack their unvaccinated staff at the drop of a hat. As the statement says, “The coronavirus pandemic doesn’t automatically make it reasonable for employers to direct employees to be vaccinated against the virus.”

    The FWO has done a good job in giving workers hope that if they are sacked, an unfair dismissal case may be viable. Here are the main provisions protecting workers:

    1. There needs to be a legal basis for forced workplace vaccinations. Employers cannot simply pursue this practice without foundations in the law. This means either a State Public Health order; a specific Covid vaccination clause in an employment agreement; or “It would be lawful and reasonable for an employer to give their employees a direction to be vaccinated, which is assessed on a case-by-case basis”. Inevitably, some of these cases will be unfair dismissal claims at the Fair Work Commission.

    2. “For a direction to be lawful it needs to comply with any employment contract, award or agreement, and any Commonwealth, State or Territory law that applies (for example, an anti-discrimination law).”

    3. The reasonableness of an employer directive will be determined by a range of factors: the amount of face-to-face worker/customer contact; whether the business provides an essential service; whether Covid is prevalent in the local community; vaccine availability and medical exemptions for staff.

    4. If there has been no Covid in the community for some time, an employer directive for worker vaccination is “less likely to be reasonable”. If Covid is spreading locally and the business needs to stay open during a lockdown period, a vaccination directive is “more likely to be reasonable”.

    5. Generally, staff working from home would not be required to be vaccinated, whereas workers in the frontline of Covid control would be – such as health, aged care, quarantine and border control workers.

    6. All awards and enterprise agreements have consultation clauses with workers, so there’s an expectation this will cover any attempt by employers to introduce mandatory vaccines. The views of Health and Safety Representatives must be taken into account.

    7. “Vaccination isn’t mandatory for all employees and many workplaces won’t be able to require their employees to be vaccinated.” Some workers will have legitimate reasons not to be vaccinated, such as a medical reason.

    8. If an employee refuses to be vaccinated, as a first step the employer should ask for their reasons. If the employee has a valid reason (such as a medical certificate), alternatives to vaccination should be explored, such as alternative work arrangements.

    9. Whether an employer can take disciplinary action depends on the circumstances and the legality of such action, as set out in awards and other employment agreements. Importantly, “Employers don’t otherwise have the power to suspend employees without pay unless an enterprise or other registered agreement, award or employment contract allows them to. Employees have various protections against being dismissed or treated adversely in their employment. Employers should make sure that they follow a fair process and have a valid reason for termination, or they may breach unfair dismissal or adverse action laws under the Fair Work Act.”

    Anti-Discrimination Laws

    Commonwealth and State anti-discrimination laws provide important protections for certain people from unfair treatment in the workplace. For instance, if a pregnant woman said she did not want the vaccination for valid medical reasons, an employer would most likely be in breach of these laws if he sacked her.

    Another key protection relates to disability. This is broadly defined in discrimination law. For instance, Section 49A(d) of the NSW Act covers a “disability that a person will have in the future”. Therefore, if a worker has a medical certificate stating that the prospect of a Covid vaccination gives them chronic anxiety and depression, it would be unlawful for an employer to take disciplinary action against that employee (given the nature of their future disability).

    Workers discriminated against in this fashion should lodge complaints with Anti-Discrimination NSW (which is a cost-free jurisdiction).

    Privacy Laws

    Vaccination records are highly sensitive private health information. They are protected under the Commonwealth’s 1988 Privacy Act. Thankfully, the Federal Government has decided not to share any vaccination information with NSW Minister Victor Dominello, thwarting his plan for a Vaccine Passport displayed on the Service NSW app.

    The Office of the Australian Information Commissioner has issued instructions about the privacy rights of workers with regard to their vaccination records. She has said that employers can only collect this information in “very limited circumstances”.
    Employees can say No to an employer wanting to permanently record the information, such as on a computer database. No worker should be threatened with the sack for failing to hand over his or her records.

    In wanting to examine a vaccination record, employers must advise their staff as to how the information will be handled and what privacy safeguards apply. The Commissioner says that, “An employee’s vaccination status is considered sensitive health information under the Privacy Act and higher privacy protections apply.”

    Consumer Protection

    The ex-Turnbull MP and wealthy pub baron Craig Laundy has said that all workers and customers will need to be Covid vaccinated to enter one of his 20 hotels. This means that a family wanting to enjoy a meal in a beer-garden will need to have each of its children vaccinated, no matter how young.

    The situation with customers is different to that of workers. Businesses can refuse entry to certain customers, but not in a way that breaches discrimination laws. Laundy will probably find that young families will take their patronage elsewhere. If he imposes an age exemption for children, this would likely breach anti-discrimination laws on the basis of age.

    There is also the question of privacy laws. As a matter of principle, some fully vaccinated customers will refuse to show their private health records to strangers. Their rights under privacy will probably end up being contested in the courts. Laundy has announced his policy without thinking through the consequences of this complex, unformed area of law.

    In other industries, the stakes will be higher. If supermarkets insist on fully vaccinated customers, this will raise the (implied) constitutional right for people to exist and survive in Australia – in this instance, being able to buy food. Court cases will inevitably follow.

    One Nation Respects All Vaccination Choices

    Respect is the key. NSW One Nation respects the vaccine choices of all people. We don’t yell at anyone in this debate, on either side. We know that people talk to their doctors and study the evidence and make the choice that best suits their health needs.
    Within our party, people have made different choices and this is respected under the principles of informed consent. Our Federal Leader, Senator Pauline Hanson, has said publicly that she will remain unvaccinated while our two NSW MPs, Mark Latham and Rod Roberts, have been vaccinated.

    Our biggest concern is for what the public is going through. It’s a horrible situation for someone to have to choose between their job and a medical procedure they don’t want.

    Similarly, people should not be forced into vaccination simply to access food and the other basics of life. This is not the Australia we want or have ever contemplated: a nation more like China or North Korea in removing the informed consent of its citizens.

    One Nation is fighting for government laws and processes that respect all people and their freedoms, whether as citizens, workers or consumers. We will never back down.

    Disclaimer: This is not an official government or legal document. It has been prepared by the NSW One Nation research team as a guide to assist people in knowing the type of rights available to them during this complex Covid period. Care has been taken to provide the most reliable information available. But for anyone wanting to take matters further, please consult your lawyer and/or doctor for more detailed professional advice.


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  60. Dot says:

    Maybe I don’t do it myself (see my above intemperance; I can’t stand the stupid Australian pygmy conservative argument against either an American OR a progressive Canadian Bill of Rights (both would make us more free overall)) but we really should be kind to each other.

     

    Who wants us to fight amongst ourselves?


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  61. mh says:

    Three U.S. senators — John Hickenlooper, Angus King and Roger Wicker — announced Thursday that they all have tested positive for coronavirus. All three senators were vaccinated and experiencing a “breakthrough” case of COVID-19…

    “Despite taking precautions and receiving the vaccine, this morning I tested positive for COVID-19,” King tweeted. “While I am not feeling great, I’m definitely feeling much better than I would have without the vaccine.”

    ***

    “I’m definitely feeling much better than I would have without the vaccine.”

    And the evidence for this, Angus?


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  62. struth says:

    Candy, you prove often women should not be voting.

    They are some of the most heavy handed tyrants the world has so far seen.

    People are dying, families torn apart, imprisoned not in just your country, or state but into your own home, making a genetic modifying jab killing hundreds of thousands mandatory and bringing in permission to eat and live only if you do what you are told.

    Outlawing protest against them etc etc etc etc etc etc.

     

    I didn’t know you believed only extraordinary people could become tyrants!

    And you call tyrant too harsh a word!

    FMD

    no

    FUCK ME DEAD


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  63. Barry says:

    Dot says:
    August 24, 2021 at 8:46 pm

    Maybe I don’t do it myself (see my above intemperance; I can’t stand the stupid Australian pygmy conservative argument against either an American OR a progressive Canadian Bill of Rights (both would make us more free overall)) but we really should be kind to each other.

     

    Who wants us to fight amongst ourselves?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    A Bill of Rights is an impossibility without widespread, possibly total violence.

    Given violence is the first step, let’s start with that. Then you can have your Bill of Rights.


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  64. struth says:

    I don’t remember anyone voting for lockdown, a veiled threat of coercion (or straight up kite flying) resulting in a compliant public is not “obedience”. It is hardly criminal to be coerced to meet an obligation to bargain some freedoms back, totally on the terms of the blackmailer.

     

    …………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    It certainly is criminal when submitting to that coersion and tyranny empowers the tyrant to remove the god given rights of your fellow man.

    You are nothing short of an accomplice.


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  65. struth says:

    All government even tyrannical government relies on the nconsent of the ngovernment.

    Hence then propaganda campaign.

    If they didn’t require the consent of the governed they’d just say, sorry we have the guns so do what you are told.

    No, they need a vast number of obeying, submitting, dobbing arseholes supporting them.

    If we could just get nthese criminal arseholes to stop doing that, the tyranny disappears.

    It is that simple.


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  66. struth says:

    of the governed.

     

    Where that bloody N is coming from with this new nkeynboard isn anyone’s nguess.


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  67. Dot says:

    * Bill of Rights is an impossibility without widespread, possibly total violence.*

     

    Err, how so?


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  68. Dot says:

    *It certainly is criminal when submitting to that coersion and tyranny empowers the tyrant to remove the god given rights of your fellow man.*

     

    No, that means we’re both victims. I am not beholden to martyr myself for you or the bloody government.

     

    *You are nothing short of an accomplice.*

     

    ???

     

    Sounds a tad unhinged.


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  69. FlyingPigs says:

    @Winston Smith
    … and a pony.
    —————————
    Your AI will be available on Tuesday…

    In the meantime you may wish, for what it is worth, to peruse The Lobbyist Register,
    https://lobbyists.ag.gov.au/register


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  70. Black Ball says:

    Hi all.

    The finance section of the Hun has some thoughts from captains of industry. Let me share the thoughts of them.

    First Ampol CEO Matt Halliday:

    He said: “I think increasingly people are seeing that lockdowns are not sustainable. We need to find ways to live with covid and that’s what will happen, and vaccines are the best path.”

    Second Mark Fitzgibbon, CEO of health insurer NIB. “People can still get bubonic plague. But what we have to learn as a society, just like we do with other disease states, is how to manage it and get vaccinated.” This was on the back of that insurer reporting full year revenue of $2.6bn. Their shares rose 11 percent to $7.10.

    Third Daniel Bracken of Michael Hill International. “The light at the end of the tunnel is vaccines accelerating across both Australia and New Zealand, and getting some sort of normal operating model.”

    So there you have it. The only way is vaccines apparently. FMD


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  71. Bar Beach Swimmer says:

    Does anyone know if Adam wants to continue with this enterprise?

    I looked back at the first post – 31/7/21, in which he said that on the old Cat he didn’t comment much but was always an avid reader of the site.

    I  would’ve supposed that he would put something up if he thought it was becoming a bit much for him to manage.  Or since starting the thing, he’d discovered that he didn’t have the time to keep it going.

    I do want it to work; I’d prefer not to leave. Any thoughts?

     

     

     


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  72. struth says:

    No. Submitting to a tyrant that then causes your fellow man harm because you did so, is no different to defecting to the enemy, and then loading their weapons for them to use against your fellow countrymen.

    When you submit to, and obey evil, you empower it.

    Your argument is defecting to the enemy is no concern of mine. People should do what they feel comfortable with.

    Very Libertarian of you Dot.

    No self responsibility in that political ethos evident again.


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  73. Bar Beach Swimmer says:

    BB,

    I had a look at Zip’s link to a US website for people who’ve had major side-effects from the jabs – not pretty.  From those comments, I see lots of buyer’s remorse coming down the pipeline.


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  74. Black Ball says:

    BBS, I received word of one of my friends, their cousin keeled over after receiving the jab. There will be plenty of stuff to come out, none of it pretty.


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  75. Barry says:

    Dot says:
    August 24, 2021 at 9:13 pm

    * Bill of Rights is an impossibility without widespread, possibly total violence.*

     

    Err, how so?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    That’s what it took for the yanks to get one.

    I don’t see how you’d get one here that included anything other than having the right to abortion, pronouns, and buggery.

    Pray tell how you propose to get one this side of civil war?


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  76. MatrixTransform says:

    <blockquote>Where that bloody N is coming from …</blockquote>

    everything’s fuck’n’fucked

    govt is fuck’n’fucked

    media is fuck’n’fucked

    people are fuck’n’stupid

    like your k’n keyboard

    nno what I meann?


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  77. FlyingPigs says:

    Bar Beach Swimmer says:
    August 24, 2021 at 9:25 pm

    Does anyone know if Adam wants to continue with this enterprise?

    send him an email BBS.

    I want to see both catallaxy-files and newcatallaxy succeed.

    It would be nice if Adam and Dover could do a backroom deal and standardize the underlying WordPress ‘tweaks’ they use.



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  78. Bar Beach Swimmer says:

    Terry Pedersen says:
    August 24, 2021 at 9:41 pm

    You are disgusting; I think you should retract that now.


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  79. MatrixTransform says:

    “People can still get bubonic plague. But what we have to learn as a society, just like we do with other disease states, is how to manage it and get vaccinated.”

     

    there’s a bubonic plague vax ?

     

    who knew?


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  80. egg_ says:

    Glad looking increasingly haggard in the YouTube Presser graphics on all the MSM channels.

    She’s not concerned about cases, now that innocuous Delta is ramping up?

    Funny that.

    It was always about the Frankenvax – saving Scumoron’s hide.

     

     


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  81. Bar Beach Swimmer says:
  82. Grigory M says:

    “Bar Beach Swimmer says:
    August 24, 2021 at 8:29 pm

    Franx @ 3:55

    that reminds me of Dr Kerry Chant the other week telling all and sundry that she grew up in SW Sydney and spent much time there working among the people.”

     

    kae – before your time BBS – grew up in SW Sydney. Lived in Punchbowl Road, Padstow – so she said in a conversation on the original Cat a few years ago. She spoke fondly of it – and of the residents there. Partial to propagating frangipanis.


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  83. Dot says:

    *Your argument is defecting to the enemy*

     

    Are you drunk?

     

    *No self responsibility in that political ethos evident again.*

     

    Not only you are wrong, I can show you why you are wrong if you listen for a moment instead of calling everyone else a “traitor”.


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  84. Steve trickler says:

    The list of people I wish to beat the shit out off, grows daily.

    Grrrr.

     

     


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  85. Dot says:

    *I don’t see how you’d get one here that included anything other than having the right to abortion, pronouns, and buggery.*

     

    That’s what WE ALREADY HAVE.

     

    *Pray tell how you propose to get one this side of civil war?*

     

    Don’t have a civil war.
    Write a bill of rights.
    Profit.



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  86. Indolent says:

    Not only you are wrong, I can show you why you are wrong if you listen for a moment instead of calling everyone else a “traitor”.

    ****************

    “I only did what I was told” was not a defence before.


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  87. Boambee John says:

    <i>Bar Beach Swimmer says:
    August 24, 2021 at 9:48 pm

    Terry Pedersen says:
    August 24, 2021 at 9:41 pm

    You are disgusting; I think you should retract that now.</i>

    Gone. I suspect that the mighty smite of Adam has occurred.


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  88. Indolent says:

    Struth, how about this –

    Status / Gab Social

    Hope it’s real.


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  89. Indolent says:

    I think most people here are aware of this, but it’s nice to see it in print.

    Status / Gab Social


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  90. ikamatua says:

    Struth is right, Dot is wrong.

    Sorry Dot.


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